This week, we’re taking a look at Saudi Arabia and its burgeoning tourist industry. The country largely remained closed to non-Muslim visitors since its creation in 1933, but all that changed in September 2019, when the Saudis introduced an online visa for non-religious visitors. Scottish explorer and Arabist, Alice Morrison, decided to take a long hike to talk to the ordinary people, in particular the women who live there.

Alice. Welcome to the show.

Alice Thank you for having me.

Peter Now you’ve set out to become the first person, woman or man, to cross the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia from north to south. All 2500km of it. Now, I imagine this is no mean task in the heat of the desert. And presumably you’ve got to learn how to ride a camel. Tell us how this all came about and why you’re doing it.

Alice  Well, just before I start – so I want to become the first person to cross on foot, which is very important. So I’m not riding my camels, but I am walking with them. Juicy and Lulu, my two camels. It all came about….started a long time ago. I’ve wanted to visit Saudi Arabia for a long time. I’m an Arabist, I speak Arabic. It’s the heart of Arabia, so obviously for me it’s very important.

Then about three years ago, it started to open up in Covid. I started to think about doing a big adventure there, and then I went on an Intrepid Travel Women’s tour, where I scouted it for them, and I realised that a lot of the stories that we hear in the press are really very economic or human rights or politics, but very few about what the actual people of Saudi Arabia are like, and more particularly, almost none about what Saudi women are really like and what their lives are really like. So I thought, I would love to do this as a woman, as an adventurer, as an explorer, but also just to try and amplify those women’s voices.

Felice That sounds great. Were the women happy to talk to you, or were they a bit reticent?

Alice Completely happy. Women won’t all speak on camera or be recorded, or have their photos taken. So it’s very, very important before I even approach a woman that I certainly do not film or take a photo or do anything without very explicit consent, and without me explaining exactly what I’m going to use any questions and answers for. So if I’m meeting someone socially, I’m just chatting to them, that’s fine. But if I want to actually interview someone on record, they have to be really aware of what the whole scenario is.

I found some women, especially younger ones, that were really wanted to talk to me on camera about being a young Saudi woman, about their hopes for the future, about what they want to do about their families, about how the men treat them. And then, of course, I found other women, very, very traditional Bedouin women, who just wanted to tell me about her life and her family and her grandchildren, and how much she loves her husband and loves being in the desert. So women really did love talking to me. And I loved talking to them. And of course, because I speak Arabic, there are no barriers in that way. And appropriately, I look a bit strange, probably, but I’m not there in a bikini, so I think I had no barriers up and therefore they didn’t either. It was lovely.

Peter They must be very surprised to meet a foreigner who speaks fluent Arabic.

Alice Yes, I think, I don’t know actually, that’s a really good question. I get lots of compliments, which is a bit embarrassing because so many Saudis – including women – have been educated now in America and the UK that they speak beautiful English, native speakers. And often my mixture of Arabic…but they’re very kind and they all speak back to me in Arabic and often they go, ‘My Allah, Mashallah,’ which means what God wills or how God wills it. And that’s the kind of expression of ‘Well done you.’ So it’s very nice.

Felice Did you have any problem with the husbands or fathers objecting?

Alice Not at all. Not once. No, because it’s a very inclusive thing. So if I’m going up to a woman, there was one woman actually, who was driving on her own completely, a young woman who was going on a road trip around Saudi in her holidays from being a PR manager, which was quite interesting in itself. But no, most women were with their families, either their husband or their children. And when I’m asking them if I can talk to them, I’m asking the whole group. So there’s no kind of agenda, no husband or father said no. Most husbands and fathers, if I approached, if a car stopped, for example, if we’re on a road or people came up to us, it would be the husbands or fathers who’d approached the group first, because I’m walking with men and then they’d say, go and talk to the women. So I’d go around to the other side or wherever they were and talk to the women.

Peter We should explain, of course, that you’ve done the first half of the journey, and you’re doing it in two parts. Is that right?

Alice That’s right, yes. So I’ve done the first half, which was 930km, and I finished about ten days ago. I walked from the border with Jordan down to Al-Madinah, Al-Munawwara, the city of Medina, which is Islam’s holiest city. And I finished at the Prophet’s Mosque, where he is buried on Friday prayers. So that was actually a really special experience. I’m not Muslim, but I really appreciated walking that last kilometre or walking towards the mosque to pray for a Friday, and it was really a celebratory atmosphere. And added to the whole thing.

Felice Was in two parts because it’s very gruelling. I imagine it’s very high temperatures, difficult.

Alice Yes, well, two reasons. One, Ramadan starts on Sunday. So you can’t really expect people to walk and you can’t walk in Ramadan because you’d be not drinking anything during the day, which is just too difficult. And nobody wants to be out expeditioning in Ramadan. They want to be at home and concentrating on religion in Ramadan. So that would have made a backup crew impossible. And then, by the time Ramadan is finished, it does get too hot. The temperature is already rising by the time I’ve finished. And so I’m going back for expedition season starting in October.

Peter When you say quite hot, what’s quite hot?

Alice Well, we were only in the late 20s. The sun was very, very strong, very hot on your head. But obviously in summer it goes up to the 50s. So that’s really very hot.

Felice How did you prepare for the expedition?

Alice Well, for an expedition like this, a lot of the preparation is fund raising, which is very difficult. And a big thank you to my funders, the Royal Commission for Al-Ula and Saudi Tourism Authority. It’s also logistics finding a company to do this with you. Because I’m walking across desert. There are no wells; there are no natural water resources over days and days and days. So you have to have a crew with you. And I wanted one anyway. And I also wanted to walk with a guide because I want to learn about Saudi Arabia.

So the fantastic company I found is called Mallah Al-Doroub, which means pathfinder. That took me a long time to find. And then the last really important member of our team was Alan Morrissey, who’s a long-time resident of Saudi and who’s an expert mapper. So he helped or he mapped the route. He was really the route master and did an amazing job. So finding those elements is really the first part of the expedition.

Now, in terms of physical preparation, I’m really lazy, I hate training, so what I did was I just walked. I live in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, and for the last three weeks here, I just walked two hours every day religiously in the mountains, and that made my fitness good enough. The fitness wasn’t a problem, but my feet were not hard enough and I got terrible blisters. So lesson learned. So I’m going to make sure I do some really long consecutive days in the footwear I’m wearing before I start the next leg.

Felice What did you carry with you apart from water? What other things did you need?

Alice Well, tent, food, phones batteries to keep our ur electronics charged. Lots of coffee, spiced coffee and dates. All the things you need to live because it was 45 days long. So we needed to eat and drink.

Felice And you stayed in a tent every night, or did people invite you to stay with them?

Alice It’s a great question. People did invite us. The hospitality of the Saudi people is absolutely overwhelming. I live in Morocco, where the people are extremely hospitable, but the Saudis took it to a new level. There is a string of slaughtered sheep in my path because whenever we drive somewhere, people would say, ‘Oh, come and stay at our farm.’ And then they’d let me sleep in the reception room. There’s usually two reception rooms, so I’d sleep in one, the men would sleep in another, and then they’d invite us for a party and they’d sacrifice the sheep, and we’d all eat fresh mutton with rice and have a celebration. And really, they’d never met me. I’m a strange woman walking across their country, and I was given the warmest of welcomes. I cannot speak highly enough of the people I met. It was truly uplifting. And in a time when the world is so much at conflict with itself and its strife, just that kind of genuine human contact was wonderful.

Peter Presumably you had to get some quite serious permission from the authorities. Was that difficult to get?

Alice Well, that is also a very interesting question. Actually, it was incredibly light touch. So I did get permission from the Prince Mohammed bin Salman Royal Reserve to walk through the Royal Reserves because that is forbidden unless you’ve got permission. But actually walking across the rest of Saudi, there was no permission needed. It was just able to do it. And there was very light supervision. And the reason I feel able to say that is that four or five years ago, I walked across Morocco, in the Sahara, and every single day I had to give my GPS coordinates if I could. Sometimes there was no signal to the gendarme or the countryside police and to the army. In Saudi there was absolutely nothing like that, which I thought was fascinating.

Peter Now, what inspired you to become an explorer in the first place?

 

Alice I kind of went into it step by step is the honest truth. I started off by always in my holidays when I did a proper job, if you like, and lived in the UK. I’d always do quite adventurous holidays like mountain biking in Chile, or walking in Patagonia, or even at weekends I’d be out on my bike or out hiking. So I always loved the outdoors, but I wouldn’t say I’m particularly sporty.

Then I just started doing things. I cycled across Africa as part of a race, the Tour d’Afrique, and then I was living in Morocco looking for something new to do, and I became the first woman to walk across the Draa River. Then, I did a TV programme for the BBC called Rock to Timbuktu, where I went from Morocco to Timbuktu along the old salt paths. And the BBC called me an explorer and I thought, well, thank you very much, I’ll take it.

Felice Do you live in Morocco at the moment?

Alice I do. I’m sitting here looking at my Atlas Mountain view as we speak. I live in Imlil in the Atlas Mountains, which is lovely.

Felice The camels are Saudi camels?

Alice Yes, they are Lulu and Juicy. Our Saudi camels are both girls and they both have Saudi girl names. And they were very sweet tempered, good camels. They did do breakaways from us. Unfortunately, they were stampeding camels, but they were an absolute pleasure to walk with really, on the whole, apart from when they were dragging Shya, who walked with me and I hope who’s going to walk the next leg with me? And then we’ll become the first two people to cross Saudi Arabia, a Saudi and a Scot. But the camels, I think they enjoyed it. Juicy particularly, she loved the walking. She was always really eager to get out in the morning and a bit of a handful.

Peter And of course, you’ve got to carry water for them and food for them as well.

Alice Yes that’s why we had a crew. As I said, we were in long areas of desert where there are just no wells. There are no walls either for us or the camels. Now, camels can go much longer than humans, of course, without water, but there’s no need for that. We had a backup crew. We had a car and a trailer, so we always carried enough food and water.

Peter Can you tell me about the person who’s walking with you?

 

 

Alice Shya? He is a young Saudi man. He’s 39. He’s married with two daughters, one of whom is also called Lulu. So he named the camel after her. And he’s an adventure guide with Mad Adventures. And on the second day or third day he said, ‘Look, Alice, I’d really like to do this with you. I’d like to walk every step. ‘

I just was delighted, because how much better in this modern age of exploring to be doing it with someone from Saudi Arabia. And the only reason I’m still hesitating to say he will definitely do it is because he has a young family. He said he’ll do the next stage. He had to miss three days on the first stage because of shingles, but he’s going back before the second stage to complete those three days. We have all the maps and he can easily do it, and then if he joins me on the second stage, then I’m going to start going vegan, because I think it will be amazing to do it together. And he is a fabulous walking companion.

Peter It’s a how many miles? How many kilometers per day did you walk?

Alice We did a half marathon a day, basically.

Peter It’s a long way, isn’t it?

Alice It’s a long way. Day after day. And it’s a long way when you get blisters and they’re not healing. You know, when you’re pain-filled for long hours, it’s psychologically very challenging.

Felice Did you have any rest days?

Alice I think we had two rest days.

Peter It’s not much in that time.

Alice No it’s not. So you have to be physically robust. And I think it’s very important. I’m certainly not the fastest, but thank God I seem to have been blessed with quite a strong constitution and good stamina. You never know from one expedition to the next. But yes, I was able to recover every night and be ready to go in the morning. I didn’t always want to. The body does get very tired and the blisters were a real, absolutely horrible problem. But the excitement of the expedition, the camaraderie of my lovely team. Always looking forward to lunch 4:00 with Abu Abdullah when he’d feast us on rice and chicken and spices and coffee and dates. Just sharing the experiences with the whole team, with Alan and with Khalid, who was there as well. And with Abu Ali, who was helping with the camels. It was really fun. So I think the hard parts are overwhelmed by the great parts.

Peter So tell us about where you went and what you saw, which it’s not all just straight desert, is it? Or are the mountains?

Alice No, not at all straight. We started off in the north. We bypassed Tabuk. A lot of that area is volcanic, so we were going through what’s called the Hadra in Arabic and in English, which is a kind of a wild area of black volcanic rock where there’s lots of wildlife, actually, because humans can’t go there. And so some of that we had to stay on the tarmac. Then we cut through the desert, which was fantastic. We went to Al-Ula. Al-Ula is a giant oasis in the middle of the desert, which has been a meeting and resting point for travellers for millennia. That’s where the Nabataean kingdom is. It’s got hundreds of it’s got thousands of date palms, so ideal for refuelling. And it’s got water and it’s stunningly beautiful. It has these huge red rock formations. They’re also doing a lot of work there, The Royal Commission to Preserve Nature and Wildlife.

Alice So there are nature reserves where I went and I saw an Arabian oryx, which used to be extinct and now have been reintroduced. So Al-Ula was definitely one of my major high points. And then we left Al-Ula, and then we followed a lot of the path of what is now called by the names of the provinces it goes through. So it’s called the Medina Railway or the Tabuk Railway or the Al-Ula Railway, but it used to be known as the Hejaz Railway, where famously Lawrence of Arabia fought during the Arab Revolt and in World War One. And we followed that for a long way.

There’s no railway left, but the path is still visible in lots of places, and we found loads of artifacts. We found Bronze Age tombs, we found Stone Age hand axes, we found hundreds of petroglyphs, rock carvings, which was one of my favourite things. I must admit, nothing is so much fun as finding a petroglyph. So really, it was a voyage of discovery. And if you think that we’re walking, we’re not detouring to find these things. We’re actually walking along the route.

Peter Quite extraordinary.

Felice You’re walking along an old trading route.

Alice We picked and chose because I wanted to do certain things. So we did parts of old trading routes from the Nabataean traders, the spice traders, the very important, the frankincense traders. Then we did parts of the Hajj, which is the pilgrimage route where the pilgrims used to come from all over the Islamic world, including Mansa Musa, coming all the way from Mali. And then we did part of the, as I say, the formerly known as the Hejaz Railway, and we struck out on our own. So we did all sorts of things.

Felice And one of the things you said was that some Saudi women wanted to walk with you. Did they actually do that or is that going to be on your next part of the expedition?

Alice The Saudi women that walked with me ended up being the female rangers in the Prince Mohammed bin Salman Royal Reserve. Now, these are fabulous women. They are the first female rangers in Saudi Arabia and they’re park rangers, so their job is to look after the wildlife and make sure that the park is safeguarded. So they’re always like, ‘We’re looking out for calafate,’ which means people breaching the laws. So anyone who throws litter or parks in the wrong place or lights a fire on the ground, they stop them. And they were amazing young women and they walked with me through what is now.

Felice One of the things you said was that you were walking through climate change. Tell me what you saw.

Alice There was one wadi called Wadi Al Hamd in which every single tree had died. Now these trees are very hardy. They’re often acacia trees or bushes, but every single one was dead. And we were walking through that wadi for about three days, and we weren’t sure what had caused the death, because it was like walking through the valley of death. We asked people, we speculated. We wondered if there’d been a parasite attacked the trees, or if it was just lack of water. And by a kind of consensus of asking people who used to herd there or used to live there. There were lots of empty herding encampments. We heard that it was just lack of water. The water had all dried up, and so all the trees in that central part had died. That was a very visible and very kind of gut-wrenching part of the journey.

Felice And is Saudi Arabia trying to do anything about that?

Alice Is the world trying to do anything about that?

Felice But, you know, local conservation

Alice There is a huge amount of local conservation going on. But climate change is not caused by one country. It’s caused by the big beasts who continue on their path of absolute destruction. That question is better asked to America, Russia, China, India.

Felice Totally agree. Your blisters, going back to those, what did you do about them? They could have got infected. Did you go and see someone? A doctor?

Alice No, we weren’t really near any doctors. No, I just manned up, put my big girl pants on and just dealt with it. I took a lot of painkillers and I bandaged my feet with Compeed plasters and just tried to take care of them, and eventually they went away. But it was a good three weeks of really a lot of pain.

Felice Mm, that sounds awful.

Alice It was awful.

Peter I can’t say what next, but of course October is not that far away and you’ll be back on it.

Alice Exactly. I’m going to do a few interim walks just to keep my fitness up, and I’ve got some nice time. I’m going to do the Hebridean Way in Scotland in the summer, but I’m looking forward to it already. I miss the enjoyment of it. I love being on expedition. It’s the time when I feel most myself and I feel most alive, and I feel most able to do all the things that I can do. Because it’s not that I’m good at one thing, but I’m quite good at a lot of things that make me good at doing expeditions, she said in a very arrogant way. It’s not arrogant, it’s just it’s basic kind of things that if you bring them all together, then you can manage. I think a lot of people have these qualities, but of course not everybody wants to put themselves through it.

Peter But you’re doing this, how do I put it? Not in the first flush of youth, are we?

Alice No. I’m 61.

Peter You say it’s not always that easy to do things as one gets older. I know because I’m older than that. But as long as you keep a level of fitness, you should go on for a very long time.

Alice I had a really good fifties. My fifties were really, really great for adventures. I did masses and masses of very long physical adventures, and I’m hoping that my sixties, I feel like I’ve got to really make them work for me, so there’s no time to sit around on the couch, so I’m not.

Felice You’re writing a book about this, aren’t you?

Alice I am writing a book, and I’m also hoping I’m also going to be making some form of documentary series, which will either go on a network channel near you or on YouTube.

Peter And you’ve written other books as well, haven’t you?

Alice I have. If you’re interested in this kind of adventure, I think the one that you’d enjoy the most is Walking With Nomads, which is about my seven and a half month walk across Morocco in the Sahara with my six camels, including Hamish, my favourite.

 

Felice I have another question. Tell me about the food as you went along. Did. Who did the cooking?

Alice Oh, I’m so glad to be able to mention Abu Abdullah. So Abu Abdullah was our cook and the backup car driver. And he had the best attitude. He was always good tempered, even if he was tired and it was hard. He was really good tempered and happy. He would always have the most delicious meal ready for us, and he really took pride in his cooking, so he wanted to showcase lots of Saudi foods to me. Our basic was kabsa, which is rice with either chicken or lamb. Very scented spice, delicious. My favourite was hameesa, which is like a red tomatoey stew with meat that you eat with fresh fluffy bread. His meals were always delicious and actually the food was excellent for walking on.

So in the morning we had beans and egg or porridge, and then at 12.30, we’d have an orange and some nuts or some biscuits and then and hot sweet tea. In Saudi they call it shahi and it’s very, very sweet. And I would drink a lot of it because I really needed that energy and the rehydration. And then for supper, first of all, we’d start off with spiced coffee and dates…and I say, supper, it was lunch actually, at 4:00. Then we’d have some big lunch, that you would all eat together. It was served up on one platter and you ate with your hands on the ground. So we all, the whole team ate together. And then for night time, we’d just have something like chicken noodle soup.

Felice That sounds really delicious, actually.

Alice It was. And again, I would say really, really fundamental. If you’re doing an expedition, if you’re self-supported and you have to carry your own food, then you’re going to be limited by weight. But if you’re not, then good food number one priority.

Peter How many of you were there in all with the team?

Alice There was me and Shya walking. Then there was Alan navigating and in what we called adventure cars zipping up and zipping down. And then there was the back up car with Abu Abdullah and Abu Ali. Abu Ali was meant to be our camel tyre, but it turned out he wasn’t that keen on camels, so he ended up being a kind of an all rounder. And then, you know, at different parts of the journey. Khalid Al Rahiah, who’s the owner of the company, came and joined us for the adventure and that was absolutely lovely. He walked a bit and then did lots of filming for us, which was fantastic. And of course we had lots of guests come in and out, so that was really nice. We had young Harry Correll who walked the Caucasus Trail. He’s done the thousand miles on foot and he wants to open a long distance trail in Saudi. So he came for the experience. We had Leon McCarron, who’s written a fantastic book called Wounded Tigris about walking the Tigris River in Iraq and the social situation there. And he came for half a day. So it was really nice.

We had people coming in. We had a young lad. I was walking actually on my own because I did quite a lot of walking just on my own. For whatever reason, people were behind, people were ahead, it was sick, whatever. I’m walking along kind of a small road in a national park, and a car screeches to a halt. It’s a family. So I talk to all the women and I say to the girl who’s about 20, do you want to walk with me? And she goes, no. And her brother, who’s fifteen, says, ‘I do. I saw you on TikTok, I love hiking, please let me walk with you.’ So he came and walked five kilometers with me, this young lad. It was so nice.

Felice But I want to go back to the women you spoke to. I’m just really interested in the talks you had with Saudi women, because I was surprised when you said they were very open.

Alice Do you think that people in the West have a very false picture of what you’d imagine a Saudi woman would be like.

Felice  I thought she’d be very restricted in what she’s allowed to do, to travel to, this is  what I imagine, and I obviously haven’t been there.

Alice I think that’s really good. And I think that’s a really fair imagining. And thank you for actually putting it into words because people step around this without saying what they actually do imagine. And I think what you imagine is what most people in the West would imagine, because that is the story we’ve been told. Now there are, I’m sure in many families there are restrictions. So I’m not going to talk to everybody. But the women I met were feisty. Many of them were working, as I say.

I met a young PR manager who was travelling, driving around Saudi Arabia on her own in a car. And I said to her, ‘Your family not worried about you?’ And she said, ‘At first they weren’t sure, but no, they they gave me their blessing. They said, yes, go and explore your own country and have a good time. Just keep in touch and stay in hotels.’

Obviously, as to dress, there is no longer any restriction on what you have to wear. There used to be, but Prince Mohammed bin Salman abolished that so you no longer have to wear as a Saudi woman. You no longer have to cover your hair or your face or your body. There is still a requirement to wear modest clothing, so I’d say slipper sleeves and long trousers or a long skirt or Capri pants. The Saudi women I met, most of them that I met on the road, were still wearing a black hijab, which is the headscarf, and many were still wearing a niqab, which is the face veil, and that I asked them about that, they said, ‘This is our choice, this is our tradition. This is what we believe our religion tells us.’

But they were still doing work. When you arrive at the at the airport in Saudi Arabia, many of the people behind the passport desks are women. I’d say it’s about half and half. So I think the view that we’ve been given also really interesting statistic. Women make up 49.9% of those at university currently in Saudi Arabia. Seven years ago, the ban for driving was lifted. I saw loads of women driving. There’s a fabulous Saudi Arabian female racing driver called Mashaal Al Alobaidan. I think it’s time for us to upgrade our view of Saudi women, and that really is one of the things I would like to share from this expedition is that, like anywhere like the UK, Saudi women come in all shapes and sizes, and some of them like to stay at home. Some of them like to go out and work. Some like to do sports. Some of them don’t. Just like us, we have this kind of ‘them and us’ attitude and that’s nonsense. It’s us and us.

Felice Mm. That’s really interesting. Very interesting. So now people can come on holiday there. They’ll definitely find out about that. And do you recommend it as a place people could come on holiday.

 

Alice I honestly 100% recommend Saudi as a place to go on holiday, and there’s lots of reasons for that. Prince Mohammed bin Salman has made it a big part of his vision 2030 that tourism will come to Saudi. And I think it’s partly to, of course, for revenue earning, but also as a way to open the country up. What better way to get to know other people and how they live than to travel there and meet them properly? For if you come as a tourist, I would recommend you go to Al-Ula. It is fantastic. It’s the second Petra in Jordan, which is one of the Seven Wonders of the World. It’s got an amazing City Of The Dead. It’s got really lovely things to do. There’s wonderful places to eat. There’s the oasis where you can get a taste of Arab life. There’s nature reserves. It’s got a beautiful old town which has been very sympathetically restored. So really, I’d say that’s a place you should go.

Then you can go to the Red Sea. You can go to Jeddah, which is like the trading port, which is really cosmopolitan, which has the old town, Riyadh, a beautiful modern city. I went to opera there and to the Biennale. Saudi is a place I think that’s surprising, and that is not over-touristed yet. And also you can do interesting things. Intrepid Travel run an all-women’s tour where all the guides are women and it’s only open to women. So if you want to get that kind of experience, do something like that. Really, I’d say this is a very interesting place to go, especially if you want to learn about history and culture and experience something very different. So if you want to go and party, no, there are actually some big raves in Saudi, which I find really weird, but I would say it’s not the place for you. There’s no alcohol, for example. But if you want to go and really enjoy a fantastic place that’s new and exciting and where you really get to discover stuff, then I’m genuinely a convert and I do speak from my own experience.

Felice Oh well, you sold it to me. It sounds wonderful. If people want to find out more about you and about how to get to Saudi Arabia, can you give us your website?

Alice My website is Alice Morrison.co.uk. My podcast is Alice in Wanderland and that’s Wanderland with an A, and you’ll notice me because I’ve got a camel. And then all my social media really is AliceOutThere1. And if you just search Alice Morrison, you’ll find me. If people want to travel there, check out Intrepid Travel first of all, if you want a big adventure, then Marla and the details are on my website are the people I went with. That’s for adventure tourism. Two excellent websites to check out: Visit Saudi, which really is full of information and a good first place to start and Experience Al-Ula, which again is a really good place to start to give you some ideas.

Peter That sounds great. Thank you very much indeed for coming on the show.

Alice It was my pleasure.

Felice That’s all for now. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please share this episode with at least one other person! Do also subscribe on Spotify, i-Tunes or any of the many podcast providers – where you can give us a rating. You can subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any of the many podcast platforms. You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We’d love you to sign up for our regular emails to [email protected]. By the way, we’re no 7 in the Top 20 Midlife Travel Podcasts.

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