Valentine Warner’s Wild Kitchen

Valentine Warner is a chef who likes to cook in remote corners of the world. His new venture, Kitchen in the Wild, is at a safari lodge in Kenya.

Hosted ByPeter & Felice

 

Valentine Warner

Kitchen in the Wild – Fire Cooking. Photo: © Petros Teka

Peter Valentine Warner, for those who don’t know him, is a celebrity chef, and a pretty unusual one at that. He’s made no less than nine TV series for BBC 2 and other channels, and he’s written five books. With his friend Claire Isaacs, he’s become obsessed with cooking in remote and beautiful corners of the world. His new venture, Kitchen in the Wild, is set in a private safari lodge with distant views of Mount Kenya. Val, welcome to the show.

Val Thank you very much indeed.

Peter Now, you started out in life as an artist, but somewhere along the line you swapped a brush for a spoon and indeed a pen, and became a chef and a food writer. However did your remarkable and varied career come about?

Val Growing up in Dorset in the 70s with a father who was a diplomat but also a dairy farmer, living there it was just a wondrous childhood to have. I had two parents who were extremely good cooks and a dad who was a very passionate naturalist. So the outside world was a land of opportunity, it was the land of the chattering hedgerow spirits and Herne the Hunter. Everything was animated. But also because he picked rosehips and made cough syrup, or would race shaggy ink caps home in his hand before they dissolved to ink. Everything was edible. So I began to see the world as a very unsqueamish child who ate everything that was put in front of me, and I began to view the world as edible or inedible…being driven to the doctor quite a lot for eating the wrong things. But I understood the world by biting it.

But I was also a very keen artist. I drew all the time, or I was outside, or I was cooking with my mother or father. School was hopeless; no school could contain me really. I spent a lot of time actually being spanked by the poor owner of the trout farm that I used to go and poach, who I then met at a food festival in Ibiza, which was all very embarrassing. But leaving school, I knew that I wanted to be an artist, but was wilful. And artists need discipline, and I wasn’t the most disciplined person in the world. But while at art college, I realised that I was spending a lot of time cooking things like goat and octopus in my bedsit above a sawmill in Archway, cooking on my Baby Belling. So I realised that food might be a better option for me.

I left art college as a portrait painter, but never handed my commissions in on time, was quite successful to a degree, but just didn’t have the discipline. So it’s quite odd for any adolescent to want to impose discipline on themselves. But I knew that, especially because my dad was very ill and died soon after, but I needed discipline. So I took myself to see Alastair Little. He said, ‘I’m not going to give you a job unless you come back in a year, having worked in other places and really proved that you are interested.’

So I went to work at a place called The Halcyon on Holland Park, which was quite famous at the time, but didn’t really like Michelin star cooking. I found it very wasteful and overly fussy, and my love has always been with as I like to say, maybe for later in this talk. But I’d much rather be talking to a Greek widow trying to get an octopus recipe off her than talking to Heston about molecular gastronomy.

I like provincial food, so provincial not being in any negative sense, but things that come from a sense of place. So then I went to work for Alastair, and the story went on from there, and I went and worked around lots of restaurants in London, never staying anywhere for as long as I probably should have, in hindsight.

I then started a catering company, which was very enjoyable, but very repetitive. So I moved on again, and I’ve got a huge love of fishing which has taken me all over the world. Fly fishing primarily, but whether it’s in the jungle, the sea or wherever it is. This took me to Mexico and I discovered one of the world’s greatest cuisines. Totally misunderstood in the UK. It’s all Tex-Mex and not particularly appetising. Fell in love with Mexican food and so started with my business partners, a little taqueria in London. It was the first real taqueria, and we were very lucky to get away with that, because to trademark taqueria is like trademarking a pub. That’s not possible anymore and there’s a lot of taquerias now and we sold the business.

Valentine Warner

In the kitchen, Kenya

But really travel – my dad, who’d be 106 now if he was still alive, being an ambassador in Laos and Japan and had this extraordinary life of travelling the world when it was arguably easier to travel it than it is now. And really, he put this love of travel into me and also this idea that to understand any country well, probably the best place to start is through its stomach.

So then I got on to telly. And telly was amazing for me because it just opened up a myriad of opportunities which I wouldn’t have been able to, and then started to be able to write and now have a distillery in Northumberland and are working with doing Kitchen in the Wild.

Felice It’s fascinating. You didn’t do any sort of training? Like you go to art college to be an artist…for cooking you just learn it on the job.

Val The training in the food world is often the death of any love of food. I mean, to work in hotels and stuff. I would just see so many kids. You go, why didn’t you like it? And they go, ‘Because it wasn’t imaginative. It wasn’t creative.’ So I always say, especially young people, kitchens are have it’s better if they don’t have a high turnover because they’re more settled kitchens. But inevitably people move around a lot. The young move around too much in kitchens. They should stay, like I should have.

But I always say, ‘Who do you like the most and go and ask them for a job, because what’s the worst that can be said? No. And chances are that there will be some staff shortage in their kitchen.’ So really, I prompt anyone who’s interested in that world not to go into hotel catering, but to go and ask the people they respect, because they might just get a job. But you don’t get if you don’t ask.

I actually wrote to Rick Stein. I found the letter the other day before I started working, for Alistair Little. My last line was, ‘I await your reply with monk-like patience.’ We’re then working together up in Norway and I told him about the letter and he said, ‘Good God, did I not reply?’ And I said, ‘No you didn’t.’ And you said, ‘Probably because I thought you were a precocious little shit.’

Peter He was complimentary about you. He describes your cooking safaris as being the perfect house party.

Val Well, hooray! I do love him and he’s and Sass his wife. They’re really wonderful company.

Felice Working in a kitchen? Is it as stressful as people say? And are chefs really bad tempered that we’re led to believe?

Val I think kitchens draw in a certain kind of person. I think ADHD is a very overused word, I personally think it’s maybe just one way that humans turn out, and I describe that in a maybe better way, so it’s not to get anyone furious, But I divide the world into sitters and movers, and I’m a mover. I don’t like sitting down, particularly. I like being on my feet. I like perpetual motion. I like experience and frenetic-ness. So I’m maybe I’m quite a stressy person, but I can handle that atmosphere and I like it. It keeps continual movement. It actually allows my brain to be calmer than if I’m sitting down when my brain gets into a fizz. So it’s almost by the continual movement.

It brings you in touch with so many things that have to be dealt with at the at the same time. So it’s a dance, cooking, and that can very stressful, but I like it.

Felice Do you have to be very organised?

Val I think yes you do. I’ve had to get better at it. It was Mark Hicks who used to say, ‘My God, Val you’re such a mess.’ And people I really respect, they rub off on you, but I think artistic when I’m quite often, if I’m making art at home, I’ll suddenly look up and there’s pencils everywhere and because you’re in it. But I think tidying is very, very helpful.

Peter I can see some of that as being a writer and a journalist, but once spent my life working against very tight deadlines, and I can only really function when I’m having to do that, because give me something to do and I’ll do it on the last day, because I might have three weeks to do it in, but I won’t do it till the end. And then, of course, you’re completely stressed, but I enjoy that stress.

Val I understand that, and also I would argue on your side, I’d say that maybe those three weeks that you had to do it and didn’t, those were three weeks that were probably thinking about it even though you weren’t doing it. So you’ve got this current pushing against the dam by the time you sit down and, you know, get it out. Some people work better that way.

 

Valentine Warner

Peter Because she’s the opposite.Very calm.

Felice Except I don’t like sitting still, though. My children always tell me off and they say, ‘Sit down and relax,’ because I like to be doing something all the time.

Peter I agree with you that the world is divided into movers and sitters. We’re definitely both movers, aren’t we?

Val I think also that with chefs, whatever was missing in our lives, maybe if you look at a lot of chefs, maybe lots of us weren’t breastfed. I don’t know what it is, but there’s something about feeding, putting things in. It’s a very sensory job. It’s a very food-in, food-out on the table. I think that’s why there’s quite a lot of alcohol in the chef world. It’s this frenetic, super-sensory kind of thing that goes with that particular kind of mindset.

Peter Talking of alcohol, tell us about your distillery.

Val We were in an odd period where my greatest friend, Walter Riddle, he didn’t really know what to do, and had just inherited this incredible small estate up in Northumberland. But it’s a very difficult place to run because a lot of it’s in the National Park, but it’s not high-quality land. So there’s a lot of work that has to be put into it because it’s Triple-SI and has got lots of rare things on it, but it’s not a brilliant piece of farmland.

We left the Mexican restaurant and we were both wondering what to do. And then I, with my interest in plants and foraging as a word, it’s so overused, but my love of wild plants. We were walking one day and I said, ‘God, there’s just so much juniper here. It’s absolutely everywhere. And all that happens in that barn is an owl killing mice. And you’ve got some of the most amazing water.’ He’s got Caleb system, which is a kind of alkaline water in an acid moorland it’s quite rare. ‘And you’ve got all these wonderful things. How about a distillery?’

Because I’m talking to a friend of mine, Nick Strangeway, who’s one of the world’s greatest barmen, who’s also one of the partners. And we were going to make a zubrowka, but using English bison grass and things. We didn’t make it, but I just met him. And then I’m talking to Walter, and Walter just turns around and goes, ‘Why not?’

So the idea was to really understand juniper, but on a level that actually you couldn’t simply make in a copper pot still, because it couldn’t give those definitions that we were really looking for, because we were looking at unripe and ripe juniper. So we started to look at machinery used in the perfume industry, there is no time to talk about supercritical CO2 extraction, but started using some very strange bits of machinery, and also an idea that a lifetime’s work would probably still not see us understand all the plants that grew on this estate.

So we were standing by the junipers you could see the Douglas fir, while you were by the Douglas fir you could look at the bog myrtle. When you were standing by the bog myrtle you were looking back into the kitchen garden with lovage and blackcurrants. So we had all these wonderful things to use, and that’s really where we started out.

Our gin is extremely hard to make. We never take an easy route and it’s very, very good with tonic water in it. But one of our considerations is that, personally, I’m not a gin and tonic drinker, I think it dilutes my gin too much. We’re all very passionate martini drinkers. The martini, I like to say, is like having an elegant silver brick thrown through the front window of your day – normally around six. We love drinking martinis, so we just said, ‘Let’s make a gin that’s full of water.’ Describes it so beautifully as like a cold breath from the mountain and really get to the bottom of juniper, the unripe and the ripe, and make a gin that just delivers the most immaculate martini. And we’re still going, even through those tough Covid times.

We’ve just got an absolutely stunning new bottle which has been made for us, which is meant to represent the knotted lines of juniper wood, but also the vibrations that come out from all our crazy machines and the ripples of water. It’s a rather beautiful thing. It’s just come on the market, please look it up. And we’re going strong.

Peter And what’s it called?

Val It’s called Hepple. We also make a rather curious vodka, which I absolutely love because strangely, it tastes of melons and grapefruit, even though it’s purely made from Douglas fir pine needles. And we make a sloe gin, but where we’ve taken a lot of the sugar out and actually oxidized it, so it’s got more Sherry Marsala notes, but that’s also got hawthorn in it. So we make three things at the moment and then scratching our heads at the moment thinking, right, what are we going to be up to next?

Felice That sounds amazing.

 

Valentine Warner

The kitchen team at El Karama

Peter Dealing with all these things in the wild, you’ve now set up an entirely new operation in Kenya. Tell us about that?

Val Kenya came as a result of the work that we did in Norway, and then Clare and I realising that we wanted our own business. So looking around, it’s very much…as I always describe it. I think nature is our default setting. We can’t be here without it. It’s led to some of the best food that I’ve ever eaten and some of the greatest adventures being in nature. When the cement and buildings lean in on me, if I’m in London for longer than seven days, I slightly begin to go a bit mad. I have to get into nature. You know, I fish a lot. I love the forests. I’m keen on picking mushrooms and stuff. It’s a place where I feel very, very comfortable.

So we need an idea of remoteness. Far away from the digital mayhem that invades our lives. Far away from the arrow storm of branding that hits us the minute we wake up in the morning. So, through a very wonderful man, who knew of our wanting to find the right place, we were taken to Kenya, where we went to look around a few lodges. Laikipia is absolutely beautiful, and there were animals everywhere. I just thought, ‘This is the place.’ We saw a lodge called El Karama. It’s very, very beautiful. It’s hopping with wildlife and the first time I went there, I saw things I’d never seen, like an aardwolf, which are very rare now. And I saw a gerenuk, this very long-necked, long, spindly antelope. Things that I’d wanted to see, and I’d seen two. I saw a serval cat. And I just thought, ‘This place is absolutely amazing.’ The other thing I really like about El Karama is that it sits very beautifully in its surroundings. It’s invisible. It’s not pompous.

Peter Where is it?

Val El Karama is about one hour from Nanyuki, and it’s about a five hour drive after out of Nairobi or just under an hour flight from Nairobi. You can see Mount Kenya and it’s up on that high plateau, the Laikipia Plateau. So it’s quite high up. It was just a wonderful place. But then there’s other considerations. These are people who, although the place is owned privately, they really do share it. They’ve got a very good grazing food systems. You know, they go, ‘We can’t be here without the people we share this land with.’

From a sustainability point of view, it’s all off grid and they do wonderful things, are very unhappy with the way that bin system garbage is treated. You know, they’ve set up their own system. There was so much consideration there. And then they have a small amount of cattle and an amazing kitchen garden. So for a cook, it was a brilliant place to cook because there’s lots that grows there. And then of course, there’s the farm and the dairy and stuff. So we’ve seen all these places. Which one springs to mind the quickest? El Karama, that’s when we decided to go ahead with them.

Felice I’ve been to Laikipia, to a lodge, a different lodge, but an elephant came into the garden there. So, I mean, these lodges are right out there in the middle of the wild.

Val I think it’s so it brings out something so primal in us, I think, to be gathered around the fire, listening to honking zebras and lions going ‘hmm’ as the sun’s going down, it makes the hair stand up on my neck. And I love the fact that this place also isn’t…it does have a fence, it has a low fence, but certain animals can come in. And that’s a very wonderful thing. And of course, you know, when you are in such close proximity to animals, which we’re not used to in the UK by any manner of speaking, people have to feel safe.

So that’s the other wonderful thing about there is you are looked after and the guides are amazing and you don’t feel at all. You can be very close, sitting by the pool with an elephant crashing out of the thing, and it’s wonderful. Birds as well. I mean the dawn chorus you get up early. I would just get up and sit outside as the sun came up and you hear these dripping sounds and these soaring sounds and these whizzing sounds and these whooping sounds, and it’s just blows my mind.

 

Valentine Warner

Kitchen in the Wild. Photo: © Petros Teka

Felice So how do people do this? Do they book into the lodge and then your cooking, your food…

Val Well, you go through…so I think the important thing that mustn’t be left out is that a lot of this is about cooking. So we invite chefs to come for the event. But we don’t navigate by Michelin stars, because I think that the whole point is not to rely on your gadgetry and all the ingredients that you’ve got in London or wherever.

We need those kind of acrobatic cooks, those people like Alastair Little and Mark Hix, who can come to a foreign land, be met with a load of new ingredients they’ve never seen before, like cows hump or some plant that’s wild, curry leaves or whatever it is, and then be able to think on their feet, on their feet. Also people who like to cook over charcoal, charcoal smoke is an ingredient and it’s very applicable to that place.

So we have these wonderful chefs that come. I think what’s very attractive about that is that if you went to a dinner in London given by some famous chef, chances are you might not even see him all evening, you know, or he’ll come out and talk about the menu and then you go, ‘Oh, could I speak to him again?’ And somebody tells you he’s gone home or she’s gone home or home or whatever the case may be.

Here you are living with the chefs. You know, you might be next to Angela Hartnett for four days, going on safari with her. Nick Strangeway, who I talked about earlier at Heppell, he’s also there, he’s one of the greatest living barmen and is extremely good at just also picking stuff and making exciting drinks with stuff that grows around. We’ve got Ann Powers, who’s a very famous botanist in Africa, who will be taking people to pick the very plants that will then come back to the kitchen and given to them. Then I thought that sometimes because of weather, actually. But when people if you’re coming for this analogue experience, then you’re going to be using your mouth a lot, but you might want to use your hands a lot.

So what I thought was quite funny is it might not be funny at all, but Murray, who’s a very well-known animal sculptor and bronze maker who owns El Karama with his wife Sophie, he’s just made this huge life-sized Buffalo. Bronze buffalo. It’s an absolutely astonishing great thing. If it was out under a hedge, you’d jump out of your skin, cast in bronze. And I thought, ‘Ok, let’s have Jim Parkyn, who used to be the head animator for Aardman Animation because I just love the idea of his little boggle-eyed blue hippos sitting on the back of this incredibly serious piece of sculpture.’ So Jim, who I’ve worked with over the years, is going to bring out…in fact, we’re not using plasticine…we’re going to make clay from the termite mounds, and he’s going to make animals with everybody.

So you’ve got the chefs, you’ve got the foragers, you’ve got Nick doing demos, you have the chefs doing demos, you’ll have me doing demos because I cook when I’m there. And then you might be sitting there finishing off your clay gerenuk to pack into a little box and take home with you. So there’s lots to do, and people can either do as much as they want or as little as they want. Of course, people are going to want to see the animals, so there’s night drives and day drives, but people will hopefully go home and go, ‘Wow.’

Felice Is there any influence of Kenyan cooking in what the chefs will do?

Val A hundred percent, and that’s what I really encourage them to do. So over the next couple of weeks…this year we’ve got Jackson Boxer, Arabella Boxer’s grandson, no less, and Santiago Lastra, who used to work at Noma, who is a Mexican. I’m going to sit down with them and then I’m going to go, ‘Right, what can we have?’ So I’m going to tell them about the tree tomatoes and the beef hump, and the catfish and all these things.

Then they’ve got to write menus and get them in. Because one of the big considerations of running anything like this is it’s fine in London, you just pick up the phone and ring the order in. But in Africa it’s a very different set of circumstances. I also spend a lot of time in the kitchen. There’s nothing more awful than turning up and going, ‘I’m a cook from London,’ and bossing everyone around. All the people who are there, they know how to use their ingredients. Probably much better than I do in many cases. So I’d love to be with the local staff and sit there and go, ‘You know, we haven’t got polenta, we’ve got ugali, and I don’t really know how to cook ugali, which is a very starchy corn. So can you tell me how to cook it?’ Then by listening to them. Then you’re in more of a position to go, ‘All right. I think I know what I can do now.’

Obviously, there is no hunting in Kenya. It’s not allowed, and I fully approve of that. But there’s lots of delicious goat and lamb and beef and tilapia and catfish. And we will probably get a little bit of seafood sent up from the coastline, because they have incredible wahoo and other fish like that there. So there’ll be some fish coming in from the coast near Lamu.

Peter It’s making me very hungry, this.

Felice What do you do to relax when you’re not doing all of this?

Valentine Warner

Valentine with his catch

Val The first answer is fishing. If I’m not in the kitchen, I’m fishing. I love catching everything on the fly. In fact, it was only ten days ago I caught a very nice 25 pound pike in the River Test. But I love fishing and I find it’s one of those things for me, which is second nature, it obviously can be incredibly stressful sometimes. But when I’m on the water, when I’m listening to the water, when I’m tying a fly on, it’s very fluid and I’m gone. I’m also really irresponsible, because when I go fishing, I turn my phone off and get away.

Then drawing. But it’s something that, as you know, there’s been a lot of moving around lately. I’ve done less and less of it. But, you know, around Covid and afterwards, I was really getting back into drawing. I love illustrating things. I mainly used to do a lot of cutting out and using coloured pencils. So I’ve illustrated all my cookbooks well, three of them, and I really want to go back towards that part of my life. With all these storms coming in when you can’t fish and then get on with your drawing.

Felice It’s great if you can combine drawing and cooking – in your cookbooks.

Val Well, it’s interesting working with Angela Hartnett on something we did a while back, and we had a printmaker, Tom Frost, a very brilliant maker. And so Angela had some time to make some work herself. I’ve got it in my studio. She just did the most amazing print of a fish. It’s very abbreviated, it’s almost talismanic. So I’ve got this piece by Angela Hartnett. I’ve got to get her to sign it. But what I’m trying to say is that I think there’s a lot of chefs who are very good artists, and there’s a lot of artists who are very good cooks. One has to taste nice, one has to look nice, but in one way or another, they are organisations of shapes and colour. You find very commonly that with chefs and cooks, there’s a big crossover.

A great friend of my mum was Eduardo Paolozzi, and I used to go and see him when I was at art college, and there he was in a studio with all these wonderful plasters and maquettes for the British Library. But then he’d just cook you this unbelievably delicious plate of pasta. So, cooks and chefs, I mean artists and chefs, there’s a massive crossover.

Felice So do you live in London or in the countryside?

Val No, sadly, since my father died, now I live in London. My children have been living for the last eight years with their mother in the Pyrenees. So I’ve had these wonderful adventures through France and over the top into Spain. They’ve just now moved to Jerez, so it’s very kind of them to move to a place full of delicious sherry and bodegas. So I go and see my children a lot, who live in Spain. They’re now bilingual, even though both their parents are British, and they’re happy there. And also, I think, would you really want them growing up in London? I’m not sure I would, as much as I miss them. They are 14 and 12, so I live in London and go and see them every four to five weeks. But because I move around so much, London is my base. I’ve got to have somewhere that’s not transient.

Valentine Warner

Cooking by the river at El Karama

Felice Are there any anecdotes as a chef, anything that really went wrong or funny that happened?

Val, I can tell you an extremely indecent story, which was doing a talk for the WI, I might add. Some years ago when I’d just been on television, I was invited to go to Dorchester and deliver a talk on Boy from Dorset Done Well, and to give a few stories. Those rather silent, tall men in suits who put out hymn books at 5:00 in the morning in churches, were taking people to their chairs. I knew I had to behave well.

My mum has always said to me, ‘Darling, swearing doesn’t make a story better.’ I just remembered this, and I did an hour and I was very polite and I made them laugh and I was very, very happy. And we got to the end and somebody said, ‘Well, I think there’s time for a few questions.’ At which point, one lady at the front said, ‘What’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever eaten, young Valentine?’

Stupidly, I could have told her a number of things. I stupidly said, ‘I just don’t think that’s right for this talk,’ because there was something in my mind. It was a red rag to a bull. So they all banged their sticks on the ground, going, ‘Tell us, young Valentine, tell us!’ And I told the first truth. It was the pig’s vagina taco I ate in Mexico City. Complete hush fell across the room, at which point I decided to follow it up with a second truth, which was that it was tender and giving, and I ordered another one. Anyway, needless to say, I didn’t get any sherry. It was straight to the car park and goodbye.

Peter What’s your goal for the future?

Val I think my goal is to be in a place where I see more of my children. You know, I’m not somebody I can imagine retiring. I think it would be the end of me. But at the same time, I’d like to find myself probably living by a river and on the edge of a wood. And I would really like to be able to go fishing anywhere in the world, whenever I want. For anyone that is interested in booking you’ve got the link.

Felice Could you tell us what the link is?

Val It’s www.kitcheninthewild.org

Felice And can people find that on social media as well?

Val On Instagram we are @kitchenitw

Felice And your cookery books, what are they called?

Val Well, I wrote two which were based on the television series, which was What to Eat Now, which was a seasonal romp through spring, summer, autumn and winter. I then wrote a book called The Good Table, which had a lot of my career in it and things that I felt about food. and a lot of travel, because it’s not always about very English things, I’ve been all over the place.

Then I wrote another one, What to Eat Next, which was rather confusing because people think that they had it already, when it was what they had was What To Eat Now. So that one was…I’m not sure we chose the best title for that, but my last book, which I’d love anyone to read, is called The Consolation of Food: Stories about Life and Death Seasoned With Recipes. It was originally meant to be a book for the recently bereaved or divorcees, written on psalm paper, but my publishers just thought that was really weird.

So I wrote a storybook. I didn’t think the world really needed another recipe book, we’re inundated with them. There’s too many, more than any of us could use in a lifetime. So I wrote this book about everything from catering disasters of my life, to my worries about nature, people I’ve met along the way. It’s even got a chapter on my contempt for the British divorce courts. And it’s got everything, and it’s funny. I think it was really set out to be amusing, but there’s some sadnesses in it: writing about it as a father who hasn’t seen his children grow up in the way that he’d like to; life in the Pyrenees: what it is to be a foreigner, an Englishman living up in the mountains. So it’s got everything in it, lots and lots and lots of stories. And then at the back, there’s a whopping great playlist with everything from Grace Jones to Fela Kuti –  it’s all in there, because I’m a huge music lover and collector. So The Consolation of Food: Stories about Life and Death Seasoned With Recipes.

Felice Oh, that sounds really good. Yes, we must go and buy it ourselves. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. It’s been really interesting talking to you.

Val It’s been a real pleasure to be on it, and thank you for listening to this terrible diatribe.

Felice That’s all for now. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please share this episode with at least one other person! Do also subscribe on Spotify, i-Tunes or any of the many podcast providers – where you can give us a rating. You can subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any of the many podcast platforms. You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We’d love you to sign up for our regular emails to [email protected]. By the way, we’re no 7 in the Top 20 Midlife Travel Podcasts.

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